Excerpts from e-mail released yesterday by the House Judiciary Committee, part of the evidence collected by independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr:
From: Tripp, Linda
To: Lewinsky, Monica
Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 10: 19 AM
From now on, leave me alone. Don't bother me with all your ranting and raving and analyzing of this situation. And don't accuse me of somehow "skewing" the truth -- because the reality is that what I told you is true. I really am finished, Monica. Share this sick situation with one of your other friends, because, frankly, I'm past nauseated about the whole thing. LRT
From: Lewinsky, Monica
To: Tripp, Linda
Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 10: 29 AM
That's fine with me, Linda. I will respect that. I would only like to ask that I have your assurance everything I have shared with you remains between us. You have given me your word before, but that was when we were on good terms. Can I still trust that?
Excerpts from audiotapes that Linda R. Tripp made of conversations with Monica Lewinsky, released yesterday as part evidence referred to the House Judiciary Committee by independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr:
The tapes were made between Oct. 3 and Dec. 22, 1997; the precise date of each conversation was not apparent in the transcripts.
(Tripp and Lewinsky, on the phone, discuss a job offer from U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Bill Richardson.)
LEWINSKY: ... We were sitting right near the entrance and so he kind of came in and so I said, "Ambassador Richardson, Monica Lewinsky." He said, "Oh, hi. How are you?" And I introduced him to my mom and to Peter and then he said something or another and said, "Well, we're just waiting for you. The ball's in your court."
TRIPP: Unreal.
LEWINSKY: "I want to hire you."
TRIPP: I don't believe this. ...
LEWINSKY: It was so weird. It was really weird. Like really weird.
TRIPP: ... Do you -- when you're up there, though, do you feel like you're gonna enjoy living there?
LEWINSKY: ... I just kind of feel like -- I feel really cheated, you know. ... And I said I feel like I'm moving to New York and -- because I have to, but it's not what I would be doing by choice. ...
I was crazy, Linda. I mean, it seems to me that it was like if I didn't see him, then he forgot who I was. ...
... And if he didn't call, he forgot who I was.
... I don't know if you know this or not or ever realized it, but -- you know, I got over [REDACTED] with the creep. ...
... And I really -- I really felt like, oh, there's a different girl every day and he was gonna forget. You know, I mean, when this first happened, I mean, I said to my mom, I said, "Well, I think he just fooled around with me because his girlfriend was probably furloughed."
TRIPP: You idiot.
LEWINSKY: I'm not kidding you. That's what I thought.
TRIPP: Oh, my God. Monica ...
LEWINSKY: I got -- oh -- oh -- and I bought a beautiful, beautiful, rad red very thin silk sweater top.
TRIPP: Ooh.
LEWINSKY: That -- it's for my next visit -- if I ever have one again.
TRIPP: You in red. Yes.
LEWINSKY: Which I think I will. I think eventually I'll have to, right?
TRIPP: Yeah.
LEWINSKY: I have to give him his Christmas present.
TRIPP: Yeah.
LEWINSKY: It probably won't be for forever, but ...
TRIPP: Just because you wear a red sweater does not mean you have to wear red lipstick.
LEWINSKY: I understand that.
TRIPP: Okay. I'm just trying to ...
LEWINSKY: I wouldn't ever wear red lipstick to see him.
TRIPP: Good. ...
... Well, you may have reason to call because you may end up -- um -- hearing something from Vernon.
LEWINSKY: And so what? So what do I need to say? Well, just I took something, or what?
TRIPP: Well, no. You're gonna discuss it with him, aren't you?
LEWINSKY: You know, I don't know. I kind of feel like what's the point? Why should I have to discuss it with him? Why should I have to go through the stress and the anxiety of trying to get him on the phone? You know? I don't know.
TRIPP: I don't know that I'd stop my dialogue with Betty just -- you might want to cool it with him for a little bit.
LEWINSKY: Oh, you know what? And Betty is a real big help, isn't she?
TRIPP: Oh, I don't know. I can't -- you know, I go from one way or the other. At least she smuggled you in the other day and hid you.
LEWINSKY: ... (sigh) I don't know. What would happen if, gee, I don't know, he wanted to see me on his own? Wouldn't that be nice?
TRIPP: Yeah. I wouldn't hold my breath on that one right now, not in the disengaged mode he's in. ... He owes you an explanation.
LEWINSKY: So -- and I'd just like to say so, you know, and if you can't explain it to me, then I think you -- somebody owes you an explanation.
TRIPP: He can explain it.
LEWINSKY: You know? But, I mean, it's just jobs, seven different things I could have done. And that's not asking for too much, either. ... I'll never forget when he said something or another to me, he said, "Well, you can, you know, go wherever you want -- well, within reason." Well, that's what he said to me. And I -- you know, I thought to myself -- I didn't say it. I bit my tongue -- but I was thinking, "No, you [deleted], I'm gonna say I want to be chief of staff."
TRIPP: The whole thing is -- is so just fundamentally unfair.
LEWINSKY: Yep.
TRIPP: I mean -- I don't know. I -- I -- I -- hate him for it, but on the other hand, I understand why he would have felt awkward. But I think he owes you that truth. I really do. ... You know, you're the type of person who would accept that, you know, if he were frank with you.
LEWINSKY: I think -- I think that -- and I think you've said this, too, but I think part of him wanted to bring me back because he promised me, he felt bad what happened. But I think a big part of him didn't.
TRIPP: ... I think he has a problem. And I think he knows he has a problem. And I think he knows that faced with temptation, with a willing partner that he finds sexy, he would not be able to mend his ways. And whether or not he's mending his ways on the road or any other place, I believe him when he says he wants to behave to a certain extent because --
LEWINSKY: I think he talked himself out of even being attracted to me. I really do.
TRIPP: Really?
LEWINSKY: Uh -- there is just like nothing there. I mean, it's just weird, because there was something there last month, but there was nothing there the other night. ...
TRIPP: It -- it's unfair. To everybody. I mean, it's just stupid. If it had been me, I would have -- I would have begged you not to go for that 60-second visit.
LEWINSKY: Because I didn't know it was gonna be 60 seconds.
TRIPP: Yeah, true.
LEWINSKY: You know? I -- I thought it would be 15 minutes. So all right. I'm going to bed. ...
... I don't see how like, you know, I don't feel like anybody is saying, "Gee, you know, I am really sorry this happened. I am really sorry. You got really [delete] over and it's someone's fault."
TRIPP: Well, maybe he feels maybe he has made himself feel that the fact that his people got you a job at the Pentagon --
LEWINSKY: Huh.
TRIPP: Means that you were taken care of, kind of thing.
LEWINSKY: I, I
TRIPP: I mean it was more money right?
LEWINSKY: Um, a little bit, but not much. Part of it was --
TRIPP: But you didn't -- the good thing is you didn't have to take a loss.
LEWINSKY: No. ... But I mean who can, who can put a price, I mean you know this. ... Who can put a price on working there? I mean, I was thinking when I was in New York, I will never work in a place as beautiful. ... I will never work in as prestigious a place. ...
TRIPP: I know. It seems unfair. It seems grossly unfair, actually. ... Well, he's into kind of denial anyway. ... I mean he denied Kathleen Willey to you.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: And do I believe he harassed her? Of course not. I mean in the true sense of the word, of course not. Do I think he kissed her? Yeah.
LEWINSKY: You know.
TRIPP: It's hard to fake beard burn. Thank God, I didn't say that.
LEWINSKY: Hah. ...
... I'm just -- I'm starting to get a little nervous about Vernon.
TRIPP: Why?
LEWINSKY: I don't know. I -- uh -- I think -- I just want everything to be easy. I want him to call me and say, "You know, how does this amount of money, doing this here sound?" And I say, "That's sound great." He says, "Okay. Consider it a done deal."
TRIPP: Mm-hmm.
LEWINSKY: You know? And then I get some call from personnel, whatever the place is, and, "We understand you're joining our staff," you know? ...
TRIPP: Well, I'm just saying, you know, you can also hold his feet to the fire just a little bit if -- if what he comes up with doesn't appeal to you, he -- there are many choices there. ...
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: The ultimate thing is, if this is your last hurrah, you'd better get something out of it that's -- you know, that you can stick with. Because this is a good steppingstone. It's not many times that you're going to have someone of that stature opening a door for you.
LEWINSKY: Yeah. ... I just wish I didn't have all this emotional stuff. I wish I could be like him. [Redacted].
TRIPP: Oh, I'm so glad you're not.
LEWINSKY: ... I guarantee you he has not gone through one ounce of pain having to do with me in the past six, seven months. He just -- threw it all away, you know?
TRIPP: And, of course, we don't know any of that.
LEWINSKY: Well, you know what --
TRIPP: Well, we don't. You always say we don't, and we don't know.
LEWINSKY: Linda, you know? What good is -- what good is whatever it is, whatever it is -- if he feels anything, what good is it, because he doesn't act on it? So it's nothing.
TRIPP: Well, he stopped acting on it.
LEWINSKY: Well -- you know. But I just got mad today when I started thinking about all of the times, you know, that it's like -- Betty didn't get to him.
TRIPP: Hah --
LEWINSKY: But, you know, the flip side of it, too, though, Linda, is that it's like, well, when's the last time I went there because he wanted to see me on his own? You know?
TRIPP: I don't know.
LEWINSKY: February.
TRIPP: Really?
LEWINSKY: Uh-huh.
TRIPP: Yeah, it's a long time.
LEWINSKY: You know? I think -- February or maybe March. ...
... Mm-hmm. You know, it's November.
TRIPP: It's hard to believe.
LEWINSKY: It's hard, you know.
TRIPP: (Sigh.)
LEWINSKY: It's gonna be hard for a long time. (Sigh.)
TRIPP: Well, the bright side is that if you do get a wonderful job in New York and get settled in a place and start a new life, that this could be the door that needed to open.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: I mean, I believe things happen for a reason, although I have yet to figure out why this happened.
LEWINSKY: I can't figure it out. Nothing really good has come of it.
TRIPP: Maybe it's so that you can tell your grandchildren you had an affair with the you-know-what of the you-know-what.
LEWINSKY: I don't think so. ... What if your grandma right now told you she had an affair with the president? How vastly would that change your grandma's life?
TRIPP: Nothing.
LEWINSKY: I did see the cutest boy in the elevator yesterday.
TRIPP: Oh, where?
LEWINSKY: At Bloomingdale's. He was so cute.
TRIPP: See? So much a bigger pool there. ...
... The difference is, he's 50 years old and he should have known better. And he didn't have to pay a price -- you did. Hugely. ... I mean you're not a stalker. You were an invited guest. You know? Hah. Don't talk to me about that. ...
... It's like -- it makes you sound demented or something. I mean, it makes you -- uh -- I, that just angers me beyond belief. But it certainly keeps him in the clear. "Hey, we had to get her out of here, she was stalking me." ...
... Yeah. That part really does anger me because it's -- it's a -- a taint on your integrity and your reputation and your character, all of which is so richly undeserved, it's -- it's -- it's nauseating.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: And, you know, you say what you did was wrong. Well, of course it was wrong. He was a married man. But, I mean, are you making a moral judgment here? I mean, because he's so far beyond moral judgments. And, in terms of labeling you the stalker, when it was a two-way street, kills me.
But the beauty of it is it has stayed internal, and it will never taint you down the road. And that is important, I mean, you will not suffer beyond the normal regret that you have to leave by that reputation. That won't go anywhere else.
LEWINSKY: You know what's sad? Is it's just I'm leaving, and there is nothing I gained from this experience. He -- his behavior in the past few months has really -- really just eroded any -- any notion I ever had of -- like a pleasant memory, you know.
TRIPP: Well, time has a real strange way of coloring things different ways, so maybe in a -- in a few years, you'll see this differently. And it also depends on whether you continue to have any kind of relationship with him down the road.
LEWINSKY: Which I doubt.
TRIPP: You know. A friendship, a romantic -- who knows? I mean, all of that will play into how your memory serves you.
LEWINSKY: I just wish I could do something -- I wish I could just do something that would make him go, "Gee, I was stupid," you know? Like, "Boy, it was really dumb to let her go" -- or something.
... You know, he's -- he never made calls when he comes home late. Never made sense to me, right? [He] calls me at 1: 30, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock in the morning normally.
TRIPP: Well, you know, I was thinking that you should be thinking about your finale with him.
LEWINSKY: Yeah. But I guess it will have to be, I don't know, around Christmas.
TRIPP: The other thing is, do you want to go to one of those Christmas parties there?
LEWINSKY: I don't know.
TRIPP: Because you could probably work an invitation, at the very least.
LEWINSKY: ... I saw him on, like, Sunday and then I said to him, I said, "Oh, look for me at the arrival ceremony on blah, blah, blah. My mom and my aunt are coming."
TRIPP: But he didn't know which was which.
LEWINSKY: No, but he, you know, he said, "I saw them. They're cute." And I said, "Shut up."
TRIPP: (Laughing.)
LEWINSKY: Not that cute. Like, not cuter than me.
TRIPP: I wonder what he was thinking?
LEWINSKY: How he could do them, too.
TRIPP: Well, probably thinking it would be more appropriate to do them. I mean, they're even younger than he is, for God's sake.
LEWINSKY: Right. My mom is younger than he is.
TRIPP: Mm-hmm. I wonder if he ever reflects on the fact that here he is having a fling with someone that is close to his daughter's age. And I have to say in answer to my own question, I believe a lot he's thought about that, because I think that's a great big part. ...
... Well, what are you gonna wear when you go to -- um -- L.A.?
L LEWINSKY: Well, I have my black uniform. I'll wear that. ...
TRIPP: Okay.
LEWINSKY: And then I'm gonna wear the navy dress I wore to the radio address that still has the [REDACTED] on it for Thanksgiving.
TRIPP: Well, how -- you're what, you're gonna get it cleaned?
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: Oh, God.
LEWINSKY: Well, I mean, like I haven't worn it for a year, you know?
TRIPP: Yeah.
LEWINSKY: It's about time. Out with the old, you know?
TRIPP: Oh, that's too bad.
LEWINSKY: I know. ...
TRIPP: See, I think I would suggest another outfit for the radio address that makes you -- I mean, for the radio address -- for the Thanksgiving that makes you look so beautiful.
LEWINSKY: Well, that dress -- I don't care about pretty; I care about thin. That's all I care about.
TRIPP: Well, okay. And this outfit makes you look thin and beautiful. ...
(Lewinsky and Tripp discuss a phone call to Betty Currie at the White House.)
LEWINSKY: The first time I call, I said, "Listen, I have two things to tell you. First," and I did the Vernon thing.
Then I said, "Second, I got wind that the missus is leaving tomorrow, and since I know it's easier, he has a lot more flexibility when she's not there, I was thinking -- I wanted to see if I could come see him for 15 minutes."
TRIPP: Yeah.
LEWINSKY: You know? So then she said, "Well, okay, I'll check with him."
TRIPP: Well, I guess it's possible she passed the card that you sent in. Who signs for that card, by the way?
LEWINSKY: What do you mean?
TRIPP: Well, whenever you courier stuff, who signs for it?
LEWINSKY: The intern.
TRIPP: Is she -- she doesn't know about you.
LEWINSKY: No. It's Betty's intern, and I think it's a boy.
TRIPP: It's a boy?
LEWINSKY: I think so. Uh -- they're finally getting smart. ...
TRIPP: ... This navy blue dress. Now, all I would say to you is: I know how you feel today and I know why you feel the way you do today, but you have a very long life ahead of you. ... I would rather you had that in your possession if you need it years from now. That's all I'm gonna say.
LEWINSKY: You think that I can hold onto a dress for 10, 15 years with [REDACTED] from --
TRIPP: Hey, listen, my cousin is a genetic whatchamacalit.
LEWINSKY: Uh.
TRIPP: ... and during O.J. Simpson, I questioned all the DNA and do you know what he told me?
LEWINSKY: Huh?
TRIPP: ... He said that on a rape victim now ... if she has preserved a pinprick size of crusted semen, 10 years from that time, if she takes a wet Q-Tip and blobs it on there ... they can match the DNA absolutely with certainty.
... It could be your only insurance policy down the road. Or it could never be needed and you can throw it away.
(new tape)
LEWINSKY: ... I don't even know when I'm going to get to see him again, 'cause, you know, I --
TRIPP: Here's what you could suggest.
LEWINSKY: What?
TRIPP: You could suggest that if he's in New York alone --
LEWINSKY: That's never going to happen. He never goes to New York alone.
TRIPP: Ah, but he does go on foreign trips alone.
LEWINSKY: Well, I can't go on a foreign trip.
TRIPP: Well, you can if you're at the U.N.
L LEWINSKY: Oh, oy, no, please. I don't want to go to the U.N.
TRIPP: (Laughter)
LEWINSKY: I don't want to go to the U.N. I don't want to have anything -- I don't want a job that has to do with him.
TRIPP: I guess I'm just seeing too much of this Paula Jones deposition [REDACTED] on TV and everything. It's just making me very upset, the whole thing.
LEWINSKY: Why does it upset you?
TRIPP: Because it's so manipulative. I mean --
LEWINSKY: It's not manipulative. You know what? She said her character was defamed, and her reputation was ruined. If her reputation was [REDACTED] before, then what was ruined?
TRIPP: Yeah, I know. It just looks like, you know, they're bringing them out of -- now this Gennifer Flowers thing and I just said, oh my God.
LEWINSKY: I mean, but those are all people, I mean, you're looking at people who are proclaimed, self-proclaimed lovers of his.
TRIPP: All of them?
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: Yeah, I guess even that one in wherever she's from.
LEWINSKY: The book writer?
TRIPP: Yeah.
LEWINSKY: Her book is not fiction.
TRIPP: Well, it's being touted as fiction.
LEWINSKY: Well, whatever. ... You know, nobody I know -- the only person that I am not friends with anymore who knows about this is Andy, and I guarantee you his ass won't ever say anything, because I will ruin his life, and he knows it.
TRIPP: Well, he has enough to lose, doesn't he.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: I mean, his wife would get an earful, wouldn't she? I mean, obviously, Andy would lose more by opening his mouth.
LEWINSKY: Right. That's what I'm saying. That's why I know -- that's why I know -- I don't worry about Andy.
TRIPP: Whew, this is a weird movie.
LEWINSKY: ... You know? It's been a week since I talked to him.
L TRIPP: He still needs reminders, Monica. He's just that way.
LEWINSKY: ... But I sent the present. ... I mean, I'm gonna tell her -- I'm not saying I'm not gonna tell [Currie], but what I'm not gonna do is bug her all day ... if she told him or not.
TRIPP: ... When you talk to [United Nations Ambassador Bill] Richardson ... and he asks you what you want to do ... I guess you have to treat this as though you want to go.
LEWINSKY: ... I'm not going to talk about salary. I'm going to tell the creep to make, you know --
TRIPP: Oh, you don't talk -- you don't need to talk about salary to him.
LEWINSKY: Okay, 'cause the creep told me -- you know, the big creep gave me like -- he's such a [REDACTED], you know?
TRIPP: Why?
LEWINSKY: Because he's like, "Well, you know, see what you can get out of him. Try and get the best deal you can out of him, the best salary, the best job, the best da, da, da, da.
I'm kind of like, "I'm supposed to do this?" So --
... But I think -- I mean, they'll just stick me in the press office. They have a press operation there.
TRIPP: Right, they do. They have a foreign press officer there. Um, well, I think you have to use the word "substantive" a lot. You, you know. ... You'd prefer not to be someone's assistant. ...
LEWINSKY: ... the other thing that I would be interested in, too ... would be something where -- doing some kind of liaison work with the White House, too.
TRIPP: That would perfect. ...
... All I will say is, this is your opportunity to tell him what you want, so ... that you don't end up in the press office ... in some lowly --
LEWINSKY: ... I know.
LEWINSKY: ... You know what's really weird? I keep hearing these double clicks.
TRIPP: That's my gum.
LEWINSKY. Oh, OK. ...
TRIPP: ... Now whose affidavit was it that said --
LEWINSKY: This was Paula Jones' affidavit.
TRIPP: And, it's already written up about? ...
... Is that accurate, you do think?
LEWINSKY: Um, I don't think so. ...
TRIPP: ... I can't believe that she would -- oh, my God, this is gross. ...
... I just hope it goes away, because I don't want to get any more involved.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: And I just hope -- If Kathleen goes away, I assume I go away.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: (Sigh). So that's -- that's all I care about.
LEWINSKY: ... The problem is that, you know, Richardson -- you know, Richardson was told that I was dying to work for him.
TRIPP: I know.
LEWINSKY: You know? So he's offered me this position, you know, and I said I have no idea how I'm supposed to diplomatically, say, you know, you're my backup, can I let you know? (Laughter)
TRIPP: Mm-hmm.
LEWINSKY: ... Then I said about Vernon, I said, you know, you mentioned last week about setting up a meeting between me and -- between Vernon and myself. You know, do you think you could do that sometime soon? I know you're busy, blah, blah, blah.
... And then I said to him, ... I'm trying to stay calm and not freak out and keep -- and I keep repeating my mantra to myself. It was -- I mean, I tried to make the note light.
TRIPP: (Sigh) So where was it left with Betty -- who's not contacting Vernon until he tells her to, and that's very understandable?
LEWINSKY: It's not her position to go calling his friend to say can you do this for him?
TRIPP: Oh, I know.
LEWINSKY: So I -- you know, I think he's had -- he's had a very crazy -- he's got a crazy week in general. First of all, he's lost his voice and he's very sick. ... Second of all, you know, he's got this Fast Track legislation. Now we have all this [delete] with Iraq.
TRIPP: I know.
LEWINSKY: ... I mean, it was really kind of -- not hurtful, but I was a little like -- yeah, I guess it was hurtful that he didn't call, you know.
TRIPP: I know.
LEWINSKY: I mean, he knew how nervous I was.
TRIPP: (sigh) Well, the good thing is, you have one solid option now.
LEWINSKY: Yeah, except that my mom refuses to let me take it.
TRIPP: What do you mean?
LEWINSKY: Because she absolutely refuses for me to work at the U.N.
TRIPP: Tell me why.
LEWINSKY: Because she went there, and she hates the building. She says it's going to be just like the Pentagon, and she just -- (Redacted).
TRIPP: Really? Did she -- now, did she just look in the lobby or what?
LEWINSKY: I don't know what she did. I don't know. Now, one of the other options -- but I really don't want to think about doing that -- is he also -- he has a Washington office and he did also mention today possibly something in the Washington office. ... I'm just saying I could do that for six months while we work on trying to find another job. But what my mom said is -- you know, she's afraid that the creep's attitude will -- the attitude will sort of be like --
TRIPP: Oh, yeah.
LEWINSKY: "Well, we did this already for you."
TRIPP: Right. ...
TRIPP: This sounds really positive on the other thing, Monica.
LEWINSKY: It doesn't. What are you talking about?
TRIPP: Yes, it does, because that means --
LEWINSKY: To the contrary.
TRIPP: No. 1, you have a solid option.
LEWINSKY: I don't. My mom -- you don't understand. My mom won't let me take that job.
TRIPP: I don't understand that.
LEWINSKY: Because she went there and she was like, "Monica, it'll be like being at the Pentagon in New York. It's gonna be the same thing." And even though I liked Richardson and I like the people, it's true, I'm not interested in it.
TRIPP: Well, ... here's what I would say about the U.N. I agree with your mother to an extent, but I don't know enough about it to be that vocal about it. But I think you owe it to yourself to go visit.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: Just see what vibes you get. You're very good that way. ...
LEWINSKY: ... I mean, this is supposed to be, as he said, my backup -- ... And ... it just is an upsetting, uncomfortable, unsettling feeling when your backup has turned into your only option. ...
... I came very close to writing a letter, but I figured that's not the kind of thing that you write, you know, on paper. It's more of the thing you say in person, you know, along the lines of, you know, "Hey, the reason I'm doing this whole New York thing is because you didn't bring me back."
TRIPP: Right.
LEWINSKY: You know?
TRIPP: The gates were locked.
LEWINSKY: I know. ...
... And (REDACTED) leaves on Saturday, so, really, I mean, it just will make it a lot easier for him to do whatever it is he needs to do, hopefully.
TRIPP: Are you going to see him?
LEWINSKY: I don't know. I'm supposed to. Maybe.
TRIPP: When are you supposed to see him, Saturday?
LEWINSKY: Yeah, possibly.
TRIPP: I'd wait 'til she's out of town.
LEWINSKY: Well, that's what I was thinking, too, but I don't know. That kind of -- (tape skip). Either -- well, he'd said Saturday, and then, you know -- so I'm thinking, OK, well, maybe Sunday. I wouldn't mind next Saturday, except a little bit 'cause it would be the two-year anniversary, and it's not. You know what I mean?
TRIPP: Oh.
LEWINSKY: I'm not, like, not his girlfriend anymore. But -- I don't know.
TRIPP: Oh, that's so romantic, though.
LEWINSKY: I know. But then I -- but then I kind of feel like --
TRIPP: Is she gone for an extended period?
LEWINSKY: I think she's gone for ten days.
TRIPP: Oh, you're kidding.
LEWINSKY: No.
TRIPP: Where is she going?
L LEWINSKY: She's going to Kazikstan and Bekistan (sic) and --
TRIPP: Alone?
LEWINSKY: Without him.
TRIPP: Wow.
LEWINSKY: So she's gone for like ten days. So she'll be gone that day, too.
TRIPP: Mm-hmm.
LEWINSKY: You know? But I just -- I just kind of feel like -- OK, if I can do it this weekend, is it worth -- is it worth the risk?
TRIPP: Of not doing it?
LEWINSKY: Right.
TRIPP: Yeah, I would take whatever they can arrange.
LEWINSKY: ... I asked him in the letter to call me, so -- you know, I said, "I know it's hard for you to call me from home, so can you please try" ...
... Is there something you're not telling me?
TRIPP: No, like what?
LEWINSKY: I don't know.
TRIPP: No, you idiot. ...
LEWINSKY: I got the tie -- the creep a tie.
TRIPP: Oh, please.
LEWINSKY: I know. It was 20 bucks at Marshall's.
TRIPP: Oh, good. Who makes it?
LEWINSKY: Calvin Klein. ... Yeah. It's gorgeous.
TRIPP: Yeah, Marshall's generally -- every now and then you can hit.
LEWINSKY: I know. It's really nice. It's real different than all the other ones. But -- so I put a really funny note with it. I'm going to send it with the book.
TRIPP: Yeah. I think you should send the book, though.
LEWINSKY: I know. I'm going to. ...
So there's that. But with the tie I wrote such a funny card, Linda.
TRIPP: (laughter)
LEWINSKY: It's really a nice tie, and I -- you know, at first I said, "Oh, you know," I said, "it'll look good with either a taupe or navy suit and a white or -- white, blue shirt, whatever you want. ... And, you know, I'm like, "that is if you like it." And I'm like, "And just think, now you can pay homage to me if you want by having a work week in which you wear one of my ties every day." (laughter)
TRIPP: (laughter) 'Cause this will be the fifth one, right?
L LEWINSKY: (laughter) Now there are five. It's the fifth one.
TRIPP: ... You'll have to give him one for the weekend days, too.
LEWINSKY: No.
TRIPP: Oh, yeah, you will.
LEWINSKY: No. I think this is it. That's what I want. You know, that's my fantasy, is to have him wear one of my ties every day.
TRIPP: You are a nut. Was that one of your ties here, with the blue shirt?
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: Oh. Which tie?
LEWINSKY: The black one, the one that was in your house.
TRIPP: You're kidding. I didn't tell that, I couldn't tell that.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: I wouldn't have worn that with a blue shirt.
LEWINSKY: It looked nice with a blue shirt, I thought.
TRIPP: What color was his suit today.
LEWINSKY: I think it was tan. Was it tan or --
(REDACTIONS)
TRIPP: ... I mean, it's so -- God. Well, that's got to be extremely embarrassing to him. ... I mean, that whole front page thing was just ridiculous, but -- but I think it will work to his advantage, because I think people just don't want to read that in the paper. ... Oh, and then they had a picture of Paula Jones and her sister.
LEWINSKY: Oy, really? ... I didn't see that.
TRIPP: ... Amazing. Well, I believe she saw something, but I don't believe -- I think this whole sensational mess she's gotten herself into was the product of others making her exploit what I think was -- started out to be a consensual thing. ... And something went wrong. ...
LEWINSKY: I don't know. ... I have to tell you, I was very surprised to hear that they were going forward with trying to subpoena Kathleen Willey.
TRIPP: Well, that's never been a dead issue.
LEWINSKY: No, but just -- I thought -- didn't you think, and I know you had said this, too, was that with her best friend coming out and saying she lied?
TRIPP: ... All they're doing is seeing what she said at the time. That's all they want to know, you know. Whether she lied, whether she didn't, they want to know what she said at the time.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: .... I just don't want it to cause another -- I don't want my name to be brought up again in the Oval Office. I just don't. It's not appropriate. I have nothing to do with this. I'm not a player. She is a player. Face it. ...
She created the whole thing. ...
LEWINSKY: I still think -- I mean, like it probably -- probably something did happen. I just still think it's weird that he's let -- I guess -- but you said it wasn't as disheveled as they made it seem. That's what I forgot.
TRIPP: No, I mean, she was red in the face, you know, the -- I don't want to get into it all. I mean, I believed her at the time. But, remember, I saw a flirtation going on for months. ...
LEWINSKY: Oh, boy. I wish this whole thing would go away. (Sighing.) I think part of the reason he went forward with this whole thing was because Kathleen was essentially a dead issue.
TRIPP: Went forward with whole thing?
LEWINSKY: I think, you know, it was kind of that they were trying to settle but, you know what (REDACTED) it didn't work, you know.
TRIPP: Well, I think -- don't you think there's still a chance for settlement?
LEWINSKY: No. And they haven't been talking either. There hasn't been any talk of settlement with the new lawyers.
TRIPP: In the press.
LEWINSKY: Well, what they've done in the past is they've spoken -- what -- you know, what they said towards -- you know, what they were saying for a while was they're negotiating, but what they're talking about is not being disclosed.
TRIPP: Well, he's never talked to you about this, right?
LEWINSKY: No.
TRIPP: Only about Kathleen.
LEWINSKY: Mm-hmm.
TRIPP: Hmpf. And he says it didn't happen.
LEWINSKY: Correct. ...
... And to my dad, what I thought about was that I have to -- that by being able to -- he will be impressed with the -- I think he'll be mad, too, but he'll be kind of impressed with the -- just with the notion that the creep talked to his daughter -- do you know what I mean?
TRIPP: How are you gonna present this?
LEWINSKY: ... I said, "And you'll call me when you get back?" he goes, "I'll call you and give you a report." Hmpf.
TRIPP: Well, he probably will --
LEWINSKY: He yelled at me because ... the way I was acting was like he was not on my team and not on my side, you know. I don't know why I should have thought that --
TRIPP: Yeah. Because it's been a year and a half and you were supposed to be back there --
LEWINSKY: A year ago. ... Linda, he got so mad at me, he must have been purple.
TRIPP: Uh, what precisely (REDACTED) him off?
LEWINSKY: ... What started it was when I said ... "Well, Betty said you could come any time in the night."
TRIPP: Oh, yeah. Well, this was at three in the morning.
LEWINSKY: Right. And he said, "Well, it's too late. It'll be all over." And I said, "Well, I want to discuss this with you in person," you know. And he goes, "No, no, no, no. Well, I'm calling you. You just demand to see me." And that's when he started, and then I started yelling."
TRIPP: (Laughter.)
LEWINSKY: And then he started yelling, and I yelled more, and he yelled more, and then he finally --
TRIPP: Did he ever say, "Do you know who you're talking to?"
LEWINSKY: No.
TRIPP: (Laughter.)
LEWINSKY: And then -- and then I was crying.
TRIPP: Oh, my God.
LEWINSKY: You know, and then he was yelling at me. ... He scared me so much that I was like, OK, OK.
TRIPP: I'm really hoping none of his little ushers were outside the door.
LEWINSKY: Well, it was one of those quiet yelling? You know, like he was trying to keep his voice down.
TRIPP: Yeah. (Laughter.) (REDACTED.)
LEWINSKY: "I have an empty life except for my work, and it's a (REDACTED) obsession."
TRIPP: He said that?
LEWINSKY: Right. And then I said, ... "Well, don't you get any warmth and da da da from your wife?"
TRIPP: You didn't.
LEWINSKY: I did. He said, "Of course I do."
TRIPP: Yeah. What he really told you was the truth before that, Monica. "I have an empty life?"
LEWINSKY: But, Linda, that's (REDACTED). What about his daughter and all the things he does and, you know --
TRIPP: No. No. What he's saying is, his compulsion for female intimacy is the void, that's the void. And whatever motivates him to behave the way he does, and then obviously he has to pull back and say, "I can't do this," is because there's a void.
And so him -- for him to say "I have an empty life," you don't understand, Monica. By now, Air Force One, all the trips, all that's pretty routine.
LEWINSKY: I don't know. I think -- I think he likes to feel sorry for himself, and I think he ... not necessarily consciously, but unconsciously, it was like this is the thing to say to drive home the point.
TRIPP: No, no. No, you're wrong. I think he slipped, and I think also -- if he were a completely fulfilled man, you wouldn't exist in his life.
LEWINSKY: Yeah.
TRIPP: So you better understand that --
LEWINSKY: But there have been millions of women. ...
LEWINSKY: ... I just realized, what am I gonna do if he (REDACTED) me over again?
TRIPP: Who?
LEWINSKY: The creep. Then I have no -- because the reason I was gonna tell him a story was because it was one of those -- you know, he didn't help me, so I have no choice.
TRIPP: ... So how was your day?
LEWINSKY: Fine. I'm still at work --
TRIPP: You are? When do you get to leave, huh? Why are you there so long on a Friday? He's still there.
LEWINSKY: Mm-hmm.
TRIPP: Oh, my goodness.
TRIPP ... Did Betty receive the package?
LEWINSKY: Yes.
TRIPP: So did you mention to her what to do with it or --
LEWINSKY: No.
TRIPP: No?
LEWINSKY: I think she's annoyed with me.
TRIPP: Why?
LEWINSKY: I don't know. I think everything that happened last week.
TRIPP: What was last week?
LEWINSKY: "I don't want to talk to you again. ..."
TRIPP: ... The one thing she has to understand ... is how difficult this has been for you.
LEWINSKY: I don't think she thinks that. ... I think in her book, I've just been totally impatient.
TRIPP: Well, she realizes you were forced to leave there because of him, right?
LEWINSKY: Yeah, but, you know --
TRIPP: So she should -- she should have some level of understanding here.
LEWINSKY: You know, sometimes my opinion of her wanders from being, you know, a total idiot
TRIPP: (REDACTED)
LEWINSKY: -- to being -- you know, to just being kind of sneaky.
TRIPP: And I find her to be, for the most part, pretty disingenuous.
LEWINSKY: Mm-hmm.
TRIPP: However, she has been your only link. ... She has tried, I think, to the best of her desires or abilities, to cope with this.
And you know, I have no idea how much he's told her. (Sigh.) So it must be somewhat uncomfortable.
LEWINSKY: Well, I'm sure he tells her nothing.
TRIPP: ... I just want you to be sure that you make the right choice when you talk to him, that's all. ...
... A part of me thinks your first idea was not a bad one.
LEWINSKY: About what?
TRIPP: At one point you said you were gonna tell him the truth.
LEWINSKY: Oh, I -- nah, I don't want to.
TRIPP: (Laughter.)
LEWINSKY: See, because then he'll -- he'll be able to -- he'll be able to blame me. Like that was only if there was no other choice, which it may come to that. Oh, you know, I didn't think about that -- oh (REDACTED).
TRIPP: You explained to her how emotionally distraught you are?
LEWINSKY: I don't know.
TRIPP: Were you crying?
LEWINSKY: I was upset. I'm just -- not like I am now. (Crying).
TRIPP: (Sigh)
LEWINSKY: Linda, I can't take it anymore.
TRIPP: I know. I know.
LEWINSKY: (Crying) It's just too -- it's too much for one person. (Crying).
TRIPP: Oh, it is too much for one person.
LEWINSKY: I go to work every day (crying) and I just (crying), I'm trying to keep it together and I just can't.
TRIPP: You've been a trouper through this, Monica, and you've been through --
LEWINSKY: (Crying)
TRIPP: It just seems as though because the frigging buffer zone, you can never communicate directly with him until he chooses to.
LEWINSKY: (Crying)
TRIPP: So when there's a crisis like this U.N. problem, he's, he's fully unaware, I'm sure. He knows --, he probably knows that Richardson called you and that there's something going on, but he doesn't know the state you're in because of that.
LEWINSKY: (Crying) ... I'm gonna throw up.
TRIPP: No, don't throw up. ...
... I almost hate for you to shoot yourself in the foot when it may be your only chance --
LEWINSKY: I know.
TRIPP: -- of a -- (sigh) a good job. Oh, good, I shouldn't say good, a job that pays $65,000 in New York.
LEWINSKY: May be, I don't know.
TRIPP: Well.
LEWINSKY: But wait a minute. Podesta doesn't even know how much money I want to make, you know. And, that's the problem.
TRIPP: It's too much right now.
LEWINSKY: I -- Linda -- I almost called you mom.
TRIPP: But did he (REDACTED) your life up for the time being? Yes. (sigh) It gives me an Excedrin headache.
LEWINSKY: (sigh)
TRIPP: I have to say this because I've thought about it a lot recently. If he for one considered someone doing this to his daughter --
LEWINSKY: I -- I thought the same thing. You know? What would you tell your daughter to do?
TRIPP: Yeah, exactly. In fact, that's a question you might want to ask him. I mean, he would die rather than let this happen to Chelsea, but you're supposed to be a stoic soldier. ... That's how he compartmentalizes. He does not see you as in that league. He sees you as a -- as a -- woman, young, but a woman.
LEWINSKY: "Don't be mad"?
TRIPP: Yeah. Hah.
LEWINSKY: (Sigh)
TRIPP: Oh, Monica, Monica, Monica, I know you can't see it now but I promise you a year from now when you look back on this, you will have a much, much healthier perspective and you will be so glad you got the (REDACTED) outta here.
LEWINSKY: I know that.
LEWINSKY: I miss him. You'll get mad at me. You know what I said at the end?
TRIPP: What?
LEWINSKY: The worst I could say.
TRIPP: Oh, you want -- you didn't say, "What are you wearing?"
LEWINSKY: No. I was even worse than that. But then what's even worse, worse, worse than what I said was I was just like -- I don't know how -- you'll die. You will die. You're gonna smack me.
TRIPP: Probably, Monica.
LEWINSKY: What do you think I said.
TRIPP: God only knows.
LEWINSKY: What's the worst thing I could say?
TRIPP: "Do you love me?"
LEWINSKY: No.
TRIPP: "I love you."
LEWINSKY: Yep.
TRIPP: You didn't.
LEWINSKY: I did. We're getting off, and I'm like, all right, "I love you, butthead." I called him butthead.
TRIPP: You didn't.
LEWINSKY: I did.
TRIPP: And what'd he say?
LEWINSKY: Just nothing. He just kind of hung up. Or I hung up. I was like, "Oh, my God, what the hell just came out of my mouth?"
TRIPP: Butthead.
LEWINSKY: Butthead.
TRIPP: Oh --
LEWINSKY: Because I realized what I had said and I didn't -- I was like, oh, I didn't want to say handsome and be so mushy, so I made it kind of joking.
TRIPP: (Sigh) (Laughter)
LEWINSKY: You know?
TRIPP: Well, that could be kind of like, "loveya," you know. Like a -- you know, (REDACTED) "love ya, mean it."
LEWINSKY: Um.
TRIPP: You know, that's no big deal. That's OK. Butthead, though. Hmmm.
LEWINSKY: I know. He probably hung up and was like, "Butthead?"
TRIPP: (Laughter)
LEWINSKY: "I didn't hear her."
TRIPP: (Laughter) Oh, my God. Well, hmmm, the one thing I'm sure he's aware of is that you don't think of him as who he is. I think that has come across loud and clear all -- the entire time. So I don't think he'd be so appalled.
LEWINSKY: Oh, yeah. 'Cause he said to me -- oh, yeah, and then he said to me at one point, you know, "I want you" -- it's like, you know, "I want you to go there and be nice and be interested in him and -- you know, because even if you don't work there, it's good, you know, if you guys are friends and stuff."
And I'm like, "Well, I don't really think he was gonna want to be friends with a 24-year-old."
TRIPP: Yeah.
LEWINSKY: You know? And I don't. I mean, it's like --
TRIPP: He doesn't mean that. He means this is a good person for you to know.
LEWINSKY: Right.
TRIPP: That's what he's telling you.
LEWINSKY: I know.
TRIPP: And essentially what he's telling you is, this is an awesome opportunity for you to network. ...
... So there is some goodness there, Monica. He's a (expletive) at times, and I think he's a compulsive sexomaniac, and I think he can't control himself, and I think a lot of things.
LEWINSKY: Well, he's done a damn good job of controlling himself around me.
LEWINSKY: I go into the back and I, like, get plonked down into the back, into the study, for probably 20 minutes, a half an hour. So (yawning) finally the creep walked out and then .... came in. Finally. And he had, like, one minute.
TRIPP: What was happening then?
LEWINSKY: Well, see, he had a -- a -- president -- oh, no. Was he PTC president? Whatshisname, the Mexico guy, Zedillo.
TRIPP: Oh. So how was it?
LEWINSKY: It was -- I mean, it was -- it was so nothing that you can't even say -- can't even grade it. You know, I mean --
TRIPP: 'Cause it was so quick.
LEWINSKY: ... Oh, my God, Linda, he looked so (REDACTED) gorgeous. ...
... So then I kept trying to open the drawers, and they wouldn't open.
TRIPP: Jesus. Alarms probably went off.
LEWINSKY: ... I'm just nosy. ... Well, I looked at the CDs, and I looked at all the books. He -- it's really weird. Like, he has these CDs that are really weird that he has them in the office. They're not CDs he's -- like "Sax for Lovers" and stuff. ...
It's so funny to me that he has "Vox" there. It's so weird. ... I mean, so I felt good, you know. That I felt like, OK, they're -- you know, there are like little reminders of me there.
TRIPP: ... He must feel as though everybody potentially can turn. Do you know what I mean?
LEWINSKY: But that's his own fault.
TRIPP: Why?
LEWINSKY: Because if you (REDACTED) people over, they're going to turn around and (REDACTED) you.
TRIPP: You didn't, and you wouldn't.
LEWINSKY: No, I wouldn't. But most people would, you know. ...
TRIPP: I wouldn't mind seeing him, you know, have to, have to, admit in public that he has a problem.
LEWINSKY: Oh I would. ... My God, I'd die.
TRIPP: But he has a problem --
LEWINSKY: He has a problem and we, the American people, elected him, so let him do his stupid job. You know?
Pub Date: 10/03/98