Face it, he's Topic A in the national conversation -- our beleaguered, our ridiculed, our humiliated-to-the-gills, bad boy president. So we decided to gather a few people in a room to see where the talk might lead us.
A rabbi came from Howard County, along with a Democrat from Reisterstown who sells real estate. A 20-something guy from Columbia took a night off from practice with his New Age-rock band. Baltimore's best-known painter of window screens - it's a provincial art form, hon - put down her brushes for the evening. A young CPA from Howard County fought rush-hour traffic on two Beltways; he even shut off his cell phone for two hours. A baby-boom, lifelong Baltimorean found a seat at the table, and a college student rode in from Westminster.
The exchange was sometimes heated, sometimes peppered with embarrassed laughter. But everyone came away - what? - enriched by what their fellow panelists had to say. And, for that reason, they all professed to be willing to gather again - and again - as we thrash our way through this current mess in the nation's life. We talked mostly about the president this time. More on Monica, Hillary and Kenneth Starr next week, when we hit the kibitz room at Attman's Deli on Lombard Street. Shall we begin?
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Moderator Dan Rodricks: If Bill Clinton were your brother, if you could sit one-on-one with him, what would you tell him today?
Rabbi Martin Siegel: I'd tell him, "You've hurt a lot of people, and you've got to make it up to them. You've got to show that you are willing to make amends to those people who you've damaged, not just make confessions that help save your job. If you're really going to get over this, you've got to talk to Monica Lewinsky and tell her that you're sorry because you hurt her very badly ... and a lot of other people. Do something, don't just talk about it."
Rodricks: Who's on that list, besides Monica?
Siegel: He's also damaged the country, and he's got to try to do some sort of penance for the country - maybe take a job in a shelter for battered women - and not where it's self-serving but where he's doing something that shows he truly is over it, that he has remorse and is willing to serve in such a way that shows, "I'm not the big clever president who's going to save my job through this. I'm a human being who's done something wrong, and I've got to make it up."
Elayne Smith (lifelong Baltimorean and administrator of a counseling center): I'd tell him he's a good human being, but he's done some stupid things. I think he owes people an apology. I also think he needs counseling.
Bobby Knatz (Democratic pol): I'd say, "Bill, look, you have superb intelligence, Rhodes scholar. Who in the world came up with the decision not to settle the Paula Jones case?"
Rodricks: You'd go back over that ground?
Knatz: I'd say, "Look, you've made a mistake, you're in the soup here real good. But I believe you're on the right track. You're
offering contrition, you're saying your actions have been indefensible, you're apologizing to your family, to the American public. You've asked for forgiveness."
Siegel: We can't be sure this asking forgiveness is not self-serving. It's an admission that he's done something wrong, a positive step. But as his brother, someone who cares about him, I want to see him heal himself from whatever is causing this kind of behavior. "There's some emptiness in your soul that this behavior is a manifestation of, and you've got to get at that. The heart of your being is touched by this. This isn't about saving your job. This is about saving your life!"
Knatz: I would take a more practical approach. (Turning to Siegel). It wouldn't be as philosophical ...
Siegel: (Laughter) What can I do?
Knatz: ... and that is, "The American people have elected you president" - are we still on the brother kick, Mr. Media Man?
Rodricks: Yeah, yeah, just a little while longer.
Knatz: "The American people have elected you president twice, knowing that you had an active, generous sexual appetite. Look, Brother Bill, I like women, too, but I've got a responsible position in this corporation and I'm not going to mess it up because we have a strong corporate policy here that we don't fool around within the framework of our corporation. Now, Brother Bill, you've got a bigger corporation, you've got the United States of America."
Jason Wilson (musician and radio producer): I agree with Rabbi Siegel, but I would tell Clinton to continue to lead. "Continue to show that you can make decisions. Continue to show the people that you can do the job they elected you to do." I don't think he should dwell on apologies: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Knatz: I'd compliment him, too. I'd say, "I can't believe it, Brother Bill. If I were under that kind of pressure, I wouldn't know my name. And that certainly tells me, Brother Bill, that you have the ability to lead this country under tremendous pressure."
Siegel: What we're seeing is this clever guy, always first in his class, always managed to squirm out of trouble. I'd say, "Bill, this time it's too late. No more fooling around. You got to be president of the United States, but you're not the kind of person you really can be. You're clever enough to be president of the United States; you're even clever enough to do a pretty good job at it. But you're a very damaged human being."
Smith: I agree.
Siegel: "You can't really fix the country until you fix yourself because this has become a great moral, spiritual thing the country is going through. You could become Mother Teresa if you really repent."
Knatz: (Laughing) I'm going to resist that.
Siegel: "You have a chance to go down in history as a truly great person rather than just a clever guy who squirmed out of this one. Sure, you're strong. But you're ultimately weak. Recognize it."
Knatz: Brother Rabbi, this country doesn't want a weak president. They don't want someone who says, "Hey, I'm weak, man." They want strength.
Wilson: I did not vote for him to be the moral leader of this country. I voted for Bill Clinton to be president, to lead us in international affairs, to lead us in the government. I did not vote for him to be husband of the year.
Smith: It's still hard for me to call him immoral. I'm another human being just like him, and I don't want to be judgmental. When he came on TV to apologize, that was not an apology, and I wasn't someone who felt like he needed to apologize to me. But it needed to be more heartfelt, and that's the reason he's still apologizing -- because of the pressure. I think he's still listening to the polls. The apology seems to become more sincere as he continues to do it. ... I don't think he should be impeached. Having sex is not a crime.
Rodricks: Sex is not a crime. But Kenneth Starr says Clinton lied under oath.
Maria Mazzone (Western Maryland College student): Anybody in that position, an affair in a marriage, would lie.
Knatz: I'm not in a position to evaluate the morals of anyone here or the president. I don't want to go back and try to address the moral plateaus of every generation. I'm the Viagra generation! I don't want to live in the 1930s, when the perception was sex was dirty and the water's clean. It hasn't been bad. This isn't a bad country.
Rodricks: You're saying the standards change, and we have to adjust?
Knatz: We all can pick at the morality of generations.
Rodricks: We're only talking about one case, Bill Clinton ... did he lie under oath?
Knatz: It was a civil case, and he did what I would have done, too.
Rodricks: Lying is bad but lying about an affair is OK?
Siegel: Is any kind of sexual behavior OK? Anything?
Daniel Myung (certified public accountant): The bottom line is, did he lie under oath? And I think that's the issue we need to stick to -- not the evolving of morality. If he broke the law, I think he should face up to the punishment.
Rodricks: And the reason for the lie doesn't mitigate that?
Myung: No. The severity of the punishment might change, but we still have to say wrong is wrong and right is right. If the president of my company did something wrong in his office -- just because he's doing an awesome job, bringing millions of dollars into the company, we just can't let him go because we're all happy getting our checks, 10 percent raises every year.
Siegel: You can't separate a person's character from their actions. Clinton has shown a certain characterological flaw.
Wilson: The flaw being?
Siegel: From my point of view, it's this obsession with power. He'll do anything to keep himself in power. He seems to justify it by saying, "I do the right thing, I care about people, I care about children, and so on. It doesn't matter who I am -- so what if I do a few things to a few women? -- I'm going down in history as a person helping people, and so on." That's not the way it is anymore. ...
You can't go back to when it was all kept secret. It's a new era. We are reacting to a new kind of presidency. It's not about his policies. It's about him.
Smith: Kenneth Starr was already after him ...
Rodricks: And he still did this stuff, and doesn't that say something about ...
Smith: His arrogance.
Siegel: Knowing that people knew, and knowing the respect with which the office is held, and not ... caring. That's what bugs the hell out of me. There's one thing Bill Clinton didn't know: He didn't know that Ken Starr would catch him, and he didn't know there was a smoking dress.
Rodricks: Smoking dress?
Dee Herget (screen painter): I think Bill Clinton's got a problem with his sexuality. If there are sex addicts, he probably is one. I didn't believe Paula Jones, but I do now. On the other hand, Monica Lewinsky isn't any pure little virgin walking around. You can't tell me she didn't throw it at him. ... Morals? (To Knatz) The morals have gone down since the '40s and the '50s. Kids go to Ocean City dressed like strippers. They you-know-what instead of kissing on the first date.
Rodricks: Is Clinton responsible for that, too?
Herget: They blame him for everything, from the bubonic plague to ...
Mazzone: No one decent is going to run for public office. It's not your platform they're interested in, it's annihilation. They want to ruin you as a person, not as a political figure. Our leaders are only going to be the ones who have money and don't care, or people from the Christian Coalition who think they're holier than thou. I've always wanted to go into politics, and I've always conducted myself in a way to make sure there's never been anything that can be used against me. That's something you have to think about.
Knatz: John Glenn said his greatest concern as America moves into the 21st century was law-abiding, fine Americans saying, "I'm not going to get into politics because it's too dirty." What those fine Americans are saying is, "I don't want to get my hands dirty for our beautiful democracy." I like politics. I've participated in it. I hesitate to pass judgment on the president of the United States.
Siegel: (To Knatz) You belong to the political class, and you talk to each other. But if you talk to people out there, they don't trust you, they don't believe in you. The political class has come to focus on itself, and Bill Clinton became king of the hill of the political class, and he didn't want to give it up and he said, "Who cares about the people, who cares about Monica Lewinsky, who cares about anybody? I'm gonna keep my job." I think the people care about morality. The people want authenticity, and they're not getting it from the political class.
Myung: I became a citizen in 1996. I was born in Korea, I lived in the Middle East, the United Arab Emirates for two and a half years, Japan for 14 months. I traveled a lot. I live in America because we have a higher standard. We're not happy with mediocrity. We strive for the best. If you go for the top, you've got to have tougher rules. Our society is an example to the whole world -- we have to live at a higher standard.
Siegel: If we don't believe in sexual rules, why should we believe in honesty rules? Or rules about the grand jury? We're talking about the potential of a chaotic, totally primitive society. A society without law, without morals, is a jungle. And if the chief executive cannot be held to any kind of accountability about the laws, why should anyone else?
Wilson: Here's a thing that bothers me. Did Bill Clinton really think that 21-year-old Monica Lewinsky was going to keep her mouth shut? And if he actually thought that, what does that say about his decision making?
Smith: I would be real afraid of his judgment if I had a son and we went to war.
Mazzone: I've seen the good things he's done. He did so many things helpful to Ireland. I see the remarkable things this guy can do, and it really bothers me that he crippled himself this way. I see so much of a waste.
Smith: He's the contradiction in all of us, he's our struggle. We all have something we're not proud of. We all have things we're very proud of. His contradiction -- just being a human being -- is all of our struggle.
Siegel: He has the opportunity to lead us to our better nature. Instead, he has led us to our worst nature. It's good that he helps in the Middle East, helps in Ireland. We have to find out whether he can lead us to our better nature.
Rodricks: Dee Herget, what do you think of Clinton these days, this situation he's in?
Herget: Most of the women I know have a different outlook on this than the men because adultery is more common among men than women. Men are capable of just doing it and not being emotionally involved. Women are willing to forgive him because they know what men are capable of. He's a man. He's president, but he's not infallible.
Rodricks: Rush Limbaugh and others are confounded by how popular he remains, especially among women.
Herget: Dan, I have a sticker in my car window that says, "I think, therefore I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh." Women say it's not worth impeaching him for.
Wilson: Are there grounds for impeachment? My understanding of what impeachment is: When the president abuses his power to the detriment of the country. An affair, by definition, is dishonest but I don't think it is impeachable.
Myung: Impeachment could have a huge, negative impact not only on this country, but everywhere in the world -- politically, economically. Did he lie under oath? I think it's pretty clear. He misled people under oath, which is pretty close to perjury in my opinion. So now, if I had to make a decision, I think he should be impeached.
That's unfortunate, because my salary might be impacted. I work for a consulting firm, and the economy really matters. When companies have money, they have money to spend on consulting. In bad times, things tighten up. So, personally, it could effect me negatively. But we have to send a message to the next generation: We are not ruled by money; we are ruled by our beliefs.
Siegel: I see this as an opportunity for redemption. We have gotten away from a lot of the central structures of what makes one civilized and human. Clinton has an opportunity to redeem himself and to redeem the country by saying, "I really want to return to better standards of morality, better standards of sexual conduct. I did it, but I see the consequence."
Rodricks: How can he be such a messenger? He has no credibility.
Siegel: I'm not into whether he stays or goes. I see that the president is a great symbolic figure, and I'm interested in seeing whether the opportunity this situation presents can be used for a national, international transition in which we begin to say morality is important. And morality means I take responsibility for the effect of what I do on other people. He has done a lot of damage. If he truly tries to make it right, people will look back and say this is when the country began to return to a kind of moral, spiritual center that we've been missing.
THE CHAT GROUP
Elayne Smith, 48, lifelong Baltimorean. Administrator of a counseling center in Cockeysville.
"He's a good human being, but he's done some stupid things. I think he needs counseling."
Bobby Knatz, 68, Reisterstown. Commercial real estate broker, self-described "old Democratic precinct politician."
"Who in the world came up with the decision not to settle the
Paula Jones case?"
Daniel Myung, 26, certified public accountant from Columbia. Registered Republican, born-again Christian.
"If I had to make a decision, I think he should be impeached."
Rabbi Martin Siegel, 65, leader of the Columbia Jewish %o Congregation. Runs institute for spiritual healing.
"There's some emptiness in your soul. ... This isn't about saving your job. This is about saving your life!"
Maria Mazzone, 21, senior at Western Maryland College. Worked as an intern in the Irish parliament in Dublin.
"No one decent is going to run for public office. It's not your platform they're interested in, it's annihilation."
Jason Wilson, 25, of Columbia. Musician and free-lance radio producer and recording engineer.
"I did not vote for him to be moral leader of this country. I did not vote for him to be husband of the year."
Dee Herget, 63, of Essex. Baltimore's best-known painter of window screens. Her work is sought by folk-art collectors all over the world.
"If there are sex addicts, he probably is one."
Pub Date: 9/17/98